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Post by microfarad on Mar 25, 2010 9:11:44 GMT -5
I think we should find a single PG tech element and all rally behind it. There are several candidates for a tech element, but to be honest, none of them seem to be perfect. I intend this thread to discuss the properties, and name, of a new element. Bearing that in mind, here are my thoughts on a new element...
Behind all of the modern marvels of today's world, and behind PG tech's greatest achievements is an interesting Boolean operator. We often hide this device in modern electronics, instead focusing on AND OR and NOT gates. Yet each of these gates is made from a combination of another, more basic gate. I call this the NCR gate, because it emulates the action of a normally closed relay (read up if you want, you don't have to). Here is it's logic table...
IN#1-----IN#2-----OUT
0--------0--------0
0--------1--------0
1--------0--------1
1--------1--------0
Do not dismiss this operator! It is the foundation of all great PG tech, such as the 8 bit laser RAM I built.
In the world of lasers, this operator is built using "tubes". These bulky devices take an area of 4 by 9 on the screen (if you want them to be reliable), and often take up more because of the pieces of metal needed to guide the laser into and out of the tube (6 by 13). Lasers do provide full logical functionality, but we may consider making laser tech smaller by incorporating an NCR function into out new element.
Thunder is the other bet for PG tech. It has it's limitations, but it does already have a tiny NCR function. Thunder wants to go clockwise in a loop, though will always go straight ahead given the chance. Thus if you have a T shaped piece of metal, run a current right to left across the top. That is your input 1. Then, the input two is from the bottom of the T, if input 2 is on then it will flow up to the intersection and take a right, blocking the input 1 thunder. This can create a flow in the wrong direction, but tiny diodes are also possible.
The problem with thunder tech is that there is NO splitter (unless you convert from thunder to laser, split, then convert back to thunder). So while combinational logic is possible with thunder (output depends only on the current inputs, not a history of inputs), thunder gates cannot make memory. Well, I guess I lied, we can make a thunder splitter with mercury, but each path the thunder splits to gets a weaker current than what came in. Also, using a diode you can separate the flows, so it seems that inverting the backflow of an NCR might make a splitter, but this proves to fail, because the outputs are too weak to be useful for logic.
So a laser NCR?
A thunder splitter?
Two in one???
Anything else?
Also, it should be noted that either a laser splitter, or a laser NCR with an extra input (like the input1) and an extra output (to deal with the new input) is in order. Otherwise, the only way to split laser would be to use bulky tubes.
Sow, how exactly should this new element work??? Any thoughts?
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Post by Qwerty on Mar 25, 2010 9:25:45 GMT -5
We can just use clone to fix that thunder splitter problem.
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Post by microfarad on Mar 25, 2010 9:34:27 GMT -5
No, we cannot. Clone clones FOREVER, so it's only good for 1 time logic...
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Post by miczu on Mar 25, 2010 16:03:23 GMT -5
First thing we need is small and perfect splitter - by perfect I mean, that if one laser or thunder go in, it will always give 2 (or more) elements of the same (or with conversion to the other).
Second, event with NCR (with is for me an AND gate with single NOT) we still need give constant (?) input for for making it work with other state (holding relay closed) so something with "memory" would be nice too.
Third in real electronic 4 gates are main steam - NOT, OR, AND, XOR. Or is simples and we have more then one way of making it (and always is small) making others with more or less space is the way to make circuits in PG.
As far as I know, the best element for the job (in perfect state) is crystal (perfect - with thunder charging element). It can split thunder and laser in any number (3-4 with only 2 dots) with a charging element. It is by itself an XOR and AND gate. Can hold 1 bit of data (charging it) and with my crystal simulator I made smallest calculator working in binary with any number of bits (maybe with total size of 10 tubes).
Maybe you think that I only support my own element, but I was made for single purpose - PG tech and it does its job perfectly.
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Post by microfarad on Mar 25, 2010 19:51:34 GMT -5
ALL HAIL TECH GOD MICZU...
lol
Miczu, I have never quite understood the implications of crystal. Can you please explain it's merits? How do you make a crystal XOR, or a crystal AND? How exactly do you make crystal memory? I have crystal sim. Maybe you can post a crystal sim code. Please???
I am very open to crystal, it seems useful. I just don't understand how it works...
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Post by Guest on Mar 25, 2010 23:03:54 GMT -5
ALL HAIL TECH GOD MICZU... lol Miczu, I have never quite understood the implications of crystal. Can you please explain it's merits? How do you make a crystal XOR, or a crystal AND? How exactly do you make crystal memory? I have crystal sim. Maybe you can post a crystal sim code. Please??? I am very open to crystal, it seems useful. I just don't understand how it works... Writing Crystal memory is shooting energy at crystal. Reading is also shooting energy at crystal. XOR and AND, I don't know. You can also make a clock! |
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Post by microfarad on Mar 25, 2010 23:23:48 GMT -5
Yes, I knew all these things. I need elaboration on the things which are not so obvious. And why are you a guest??? Come join our Forum. Please, its a nice place.
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Post by miczu on Mar 26, 2010 4:04:18 GMT -5
U0A0G4X0D0K1U0E0E1U0D0D4X0B0I1U0A0I4X0D0G4U0G0K1U0B0H1U0D0H1U0E0I1U0G0L300C0I370D0W1U0A0K1U0B0D1U0A0E1U0G0J4X0B0G4X0B0E4X0D0E5U0C0J5U0C0F32090U4X0B0K320B0M330A0Q320D0N1U0K0I320D0F1U080S300H0K1U0J0L1U0I0I300H0G5U0J0FBU0E0U4X0D0I5U0F0T300c0U4X0J0G1U0C0P1U0K0K4X0K0G1U0I0H1U0K0H1U0I0F1U0K0F4U0D0Q1U0C0Q320D0S300U0U1U0B0Q1U080U1U090V1U0E0Q300M0U1U080R1U090Q1U0E0P4X0F0U1U0C0O1U0D0Y300k0U1U0C0S1U0D0T1U0C0Y1U080T1U0E0O1U0C0R5U0F0V300h0G300R0G300Z0GXOR is the CRYSTAL - if pair number of inputs hit it, it doesn't shot laser. If a Charger and torch touch a crystal, then it work as AND gate - if pair number of inputs hit it, it shot laser. And for memory, go here: danballforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=pgtech&thread=1815&post=51329And apparently Memzak did a AND gate at youtube  www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARE6MHzmVlQ&feature=related |
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Post by droctagonapus on Mar 26, 2010 21:14:30 GMT -5
a nand idea of mine
a nand might be useful as it is a :, power source
, and can be used to make any gate (for a one gate just give it 2 0's for a not give it a 1 and a input for and use a nand with 2 inputs and a not, for or 2 not'd inputs into a nand etc.)
if touching torch it would output laser, otherwise it would output thunder(or something of that sort) would either output to the right or in all four unblock direction(I am unsure which would be better, I think to the right, or possibly some other way, such as which diagonal spaces were occupied) if it had 2 inputs it would not output, otherwise it would output.
I dont think I should submit it yes, as I dont have the direction of output all thought out yet, but I think it could be useful.(you can make a ~2 pixel not gate!)
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Post by miczu on Mar 27, 2010 4:16:13 GMT -5
It would be hard to input data if it output laser/thunder in every direction...
Maybe shape of the structure will decide how it work, and where it output? Like 1 dot is a perfect laser source and more complex behavior will take place when its bigger?
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Post by droctagonapus on Mar 28, 2010 15:34:32 GMT -5
I was thinking maybe that depending which sides were being touched at the corners would determine the output direction. for one possible exaple it would output in all 4 directions except those between 2 diagnal that are touching an element(be it water or glass or powder) or something of that sort.
I guess always outputting right could work... I think ill put all the gates with it with stone as a placeholder assuming it always outputs right, and see if that causes any problems.
EDIT:0030030000100*02102*01*03*06*05*01w00q00004000v00u01u0B*0200Du0F00Cv0E10E00Ku0J*0Hv0Lu0G*0Bv0Q00N10M*0Pu0O*0Su0X00I10V*0Y10b00au0R00e00Uu0fv0T*0W10dv0j*0cu0iu0Zv0m00g*0ku0o10lu0pu0v10u10xu0tu0z00h00**0s010*0n01200r*13*11*17*16*1901501Bv0qv1Du0wu0.*1801Cu1F014v1E10y01Ku1J*1Hv1Lu1G*1Av1Q01N11M*1Pu1O*1Su1X01I11V*1Y11b01au1R01e01Uu1fv1T*1W11dv1j*1cu1iu1Zv1m01g*1ku1o11lu1pu1v11u11xu1tu1z01h01**1s020*1n02201gu00x00H00p0Bp2700Dy0Jv26H29H00o0Bx27o0By2610Mv2D02FH0BH0Bw2Ao2Ax2Ju0Sx2Aq2Aw2PH2Gx0Ju2Dp0Bo27p0Br00T2E02M026x0Ox2cq29T2Eo2Ix2Cy2co0Bz2R002x2h000P00J2Zy0Jo00y2m000r2wz2os2vT0Bn2v10Mo2.o0BT2t10M.2Y000t30u2SH2802eH0Bt38000w2Lr2Ap2V000z2Px2Cx2a028H0Bq2H03Hp2As3J135x2Ar2AH2F03U02Mo2Ep2Zx0Jz2Dq2do3HH2N03d02Fx0Jp3IH3Ao2o*21u3EH2xr2Gu1wu1.*11u2vH2ZH3t02Mp3Nx2Xy3OH3eH3ur2ou3s03y03Hr3*y3Ho3GH2bx3p00*t2vP3VT2nx0Jt49J2ZT2bH3uH3tp2Iw4Cy2ro3CH3z04503Iw0Jn3i03v03M04O10My36u2wq2wv2oz2Lo2Av2s03Ix3ax2Vp3NT3VP4Eo2S14Ux3LH3er3D*21q2Dz0A037u1Jz2Ly4K02c03Ex0Jy2LH4H000s2rJ4E00Dx0J.2Lp2At4tt2Tx4dH3Y04zT4L03Gx56o3CT3Vp4us3Wp3ky2wo5510Ms3204.02FJ2Ox56p0Bs2wr2r02wt2o.4sT2k10Mz36s5HT4B11Vx2Au3D.2Do0SH0B.3kx5bH4Mo3Uo4613SH3At4ko4MH3w10Mu40H3zo4Mq43H5iH2No5ku1.p2Dr2x000m1qv60u47*21*21p5KT2*y4JT0Bm3Dp49o2i02p10Mp4D04bo4u.2op6A05Rq2wx2ot6E*6Hy4tP4fo2W16Dy5LJ4*.6NP5DT0Gx6705*y3hy2wT6611y000.4ZH3Vr3Dz4x03Wq3Op4e03X02e.3E15Wx3WH6fH5o02ep6p03Lw6nu5fx3fq3Oo3Wo4No3O.6v00Ey2TH4yo4N.70*11v40p3Oq6jH3V.70v77H3NH7D05*x2lH3Vo78H7E*70z40s7206dw3ay79o2j002w62*23*63*13u3mw4z04zt7S01r*23p40q3Dq40o5Y028P4A02xx0Jm3sq3es4uo5Lo4uq2oq7eP6fT54x6ZH29P6FJ6Bv2A.70t6Io5Ru4WH2nw4Py3TT3Vq5Lp4bq4k02vw2uy2TT3Vv5RT83H8015lq3ex4uv7xw88H6P02xT4iu66H5Py7Zv6111Ms7cH3to0Bu2or5r06sH3et8Uy86q3Ou8YH3eo4NH3Cx0Jx7eH3Vu3k*7T*8j07a08lv8Pu3q*8kv8n00U*0710418t*8sw0A0cG7
it has and nand(I just put metal and torch near it to make it look better)
an or( really pointless, no need to use this to make it,just metal)
and a a<b
EDIT: I forgot to mention it has a not as well.
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Post by microfarad on Apr 7, 2010 18:02:35 GMT -5
OH MY GOD! It is so obvious! I have the solution! A NAND element.
If there is a pixel of NAND with one or three pixels of metal beside it (touching on sides, corners are disregarded), then the pixel of NAND will constantly shoot beams of laser in the opposite direction from the dot of metal (or out of the open side if three pixels of metal). This flow will only be interrupted if two lasers/streams of thunder enter in from the other two sides (only applies with one pixel of course). Similarly, if torch is used instead of metal, then the NAND will make a stream of thunder coming from the side opposite the torch (or out of the open side if three pixels of torch), which will only be interrupted if two lasers/streams of thunder enter in from the other two sides (again, only applies with one pixel, not three). Additionally, if there are pixels of metal on each side of the pixel of NAND then it will act as a thunder splitter, similarly, if there are no pixels touching the dot of NAND it will act as a laser splitter. Note that the NAND pixel will disregard the set of rules for Lasers if a dot of torch is nearby (touching one side), this allows metal wires to come from the NAND without interrupting it's operation under the Thunder rules.
This can easily make Laser/Thunder power sources, Laser/Thunder converters, Laser/Thunder splitters, Laser/Thunder NAND gates, Laser/Thunder AND gates, and Thunder/Laser NOT gates. Laser/Thunder or gates are also easy, but the technology for those already exists. DIAGRAM TIME!
*Will post diagram soon!
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Post by miczu on Apr 8, 2010 0:21:31 GMT -5
It seems interesting... waiting for diagram for more clarity.
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Post by microfarad on Apr 8, 2010 1:04:28 GMT -5
YAY! A half complement from Miczu! *Gets all warm and fuzzy inside
Okay, here are some diagrams, I can make diagrams for anything else you want to see demonstrated with NAND.
[img src="http://i41.[tinypic.com]/qy8klk.jpg"]
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Post by miczu on Apr 8, 2010 9:41:50 GMT -5
Remember that people can use elements in any way, so you should also say what will happen if:
- more then 1 torch touch Nand element
- what will happen if there is structure made from Nand element
- what if laser hit it from diagonal
If there is too much to do with element, Listo can leave it for later (inf.)...
PS. Use .png images for higher quality :F
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Post by microfarad on Apr 8, 2010 10:08:39 GMT -5
I am just spouting a (great) idea. The little details still need to be worked out. But maybe it will just behave like torch (except not hot) if not wired correctly. I dunno what we want to do in those cases. That is for this thread to decide.
I hope to force Listo to make the element we choose in this thread. If enough people say they want the element decided by this thread then he may give in and actually do a bit of work (who knows, he's done work before).
Tinypic must have changed the image format, it was a .bmp, which is has no loss in quality. Tinypic changed it into a .jpg, I can give you the origional file if you would like...
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Apr 8, 2010 15:28:43 GMT -5
You remembered! thanks!
Anyways all of you pose interesting questions and reasons.
As for me, I have this to say:
Your NAND element it very interesting.... and I like it. Crystal is very useful and has many remarkable properties but... the NAND is just a bit better in my opinion. I would really like to see it made by listo. It would prove very usefull in manyways. (MF could I request another diagram? One of somehow having 8-Bit RAM (memory).That could be very interesting.) I'd also like to see OR and XOR. (just to complete the set of OR, XOR, AND, NOT gates)
One last thing, if you are going to make this an element.... add more reactions to other elements. What happens with Ant? Virus? Magma? Fire? Acid? Explosives? Water? Salt Water? etc. you get the point. It just completes the element and who knows (lol who knows was a PG/CS tech dude too), maybe you could add a new type gate from a reaction with another random element like salt or sumthing.
off topic-ish:
Miczu are you still able to edit crystal simulator and add more things? Maybe add the NAND element for testing purposes? (I sort of get the NAND element but I am a bit confused in some places and all of the time seeing it helps me get it's properties better.) (eventhough I get most of what the NAND does, I'd basically like to experiment with it on my own)
[/being a self bugger]
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Post by microfarad on Apr 8, 2010 16:49:16 GMT -5
Thank you for showing interest in my idea!
We need to decide it's other properties. That is one job of this thread. What are your ideas? (I'm working on those diagrams.)
EDIT: I like the NAND gate because it is a universal gate (all other gates can be made from it) but NOR gates are also universal gates (sorry, I forgot for a bit there). We could apply the NOR set of rules instead. Your choice, NAND or NOR...
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 8, 2010 19:14:08 GMT -5
a nand was what I was trying to say...
it was the second worn in my first post in this thread...
EDIT: maybe if the direction it outputs is determined by what diagonals, outputting in the directions clockwise next to the diagonals? have something there? so with b as nothing n as the nand, ans s as something, and o as where something might be outputed(depending on the inputs):
bbs
bno
bbb
sos
bno
bbb
sos
ono
sos
etc.
This would also be interesting for another reason, being that the direction of output can be changed!
for example if there was a dot of it, and bomb falling one spot to the right with no wind, when it became one spot above the nand, the nand would output to the right, the bomb would then fall to where the outout was just outputed, and then go another pixel down and be one pixel below the nand, which would then output down! stone could fall to the left to make it output up or left!(the specifications of stone and bomb are just examples, chosen because of bombs falling speed and that stone is not destroyed by laser, I was not specifing it would only work with those elements, any element would work)
so this would both output in a variable direction, and would be a NAND!
Two great flavors that taste great together!
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Post by microfarad on Apr 8, 2010 23:14:38 GMT -5
Wow, you beat me to it with the NAND. Next time use complete sentences to we get what your saying!
As for the bomb/stone stuff... I'm confused.
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