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Post by FoxtrotZero on Dec 27, 2009 21:38:14 GMT -5
When you go anywhere, regardless of destination, route, or method of locomotion, you move at a speed; It is an accepted fact that the distance to be traversed, divided by how long it takes you to traverse this distance, will present the average speed at which one travelled during this journey.
However - Everything is relative. You did not, in fact, move several yards from one side of a room to another. (Well, you did, but) You actually moved a matter of miles from one point in space to another. Space is theorized to be infinite, therefore every location is relevant to the origin of its mapping. Be this the Empire State building in a map of New York City, The North Pole in a map stretched across the surface of the planet, or the center of our galaxy on a galactic scale, all that we know is relative.
For example. We commonly see things in terms of moving across the surface of the planet, as if it were flattened out. Therefore, it can be said that you moved ten feet. This is because, in nearly all conversation, this is the scale used.
In a conversation pertaining solely to the storage capacity of Hard Discs, one could say that their hard disc holds "Two Hundred", and one would automatically percieve this to be Two Hundred Gigabytes, as this is the common scale. There are, of course, other things lending to this, as 200GB is a fairly common Hard Disc Size.
If the answer to this question was, instead, two hundred thousand, you would likely percieve this to be a measurement of Megabytes. The exception to which is contextual - if you were in a large server databank, you might percieve this to be 200,000 Gigabytes (Or 200 Terrabytes).
So, everything is relative. This applies not only to spacial relations. For example;
How people should be treated. We have our beliefs regarding this, and these beliefs are, in fact, varied amongst the world. Because it is all relative, and all of humanity has a reference point.
For example, almost any Human would percieve any act of murder to be wrong (once again, in the case of say, a mass murderer, these responces are persistantly context-relative) yet Adolf Hitler saw it fit to attempt to put millions to death.
So think about it, anywhere and everywhere you go. Absolutely everything, from terminology, to philosiphy, to opinion, to the layout of your vehicle (The Volkswagen beetle, for example, had a design that broke what was quite standard, as does the Mazda RX Series) is relative. Even what you think of these relations and what is the optimum method is relative, regardless of how universally you think.
Bias and Opinion cannot be obliterated. However, to obliterate such a thing, may be to create an infinite loss in the planes of opinion and philosiphy.
Think about it. Exitus Acta Probat.
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Post by General Veers on Dec 27, 2009 22:57:50 GMT -5
...and then of course, is the hypothetical car on the highway traveling at 65 mph, or is he traveling at -25mph, or is he not traveling at all? Depending on the situation, all answers may simultaneously be correct. - Relative to the highway, the car could be traveling at 65 mph.
- Relative to another car which is in turn traveling at 90 mph relative to the highway, the first could be traveling at -25 mph.
- Relative to another car which is in turn traveling at 65 mph relative to the highway, the first could be traveling at 0 mph.
These are all different inertial reference frames. The term "inertial reference frame" is not to be confused with "point of view": different points of view could share the same inertial reference frame, yet different inertial reference frames can never simultaneously share the same point of view. Imagine that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious are both on the Devastator simultaneously while the Devastator travels in what seems to be (and, for the purposes of ensuring an inertial reference frame, assume to be) a straight line. Darth Sidious is sitting in his throne, and Darth Vader is sitting in his personal chamber. Relative to the Devastator, Darth Sidious and Darth Vader are both motionless; relative to point A, from which the Devastator is moving at a constant velocity v (constant speed AND constant direction), Darth Sidious and Darth Vader are both moving at constant velocity v. Ignoring the combined effects of omniscience and omnipresence for any and all entities (which should be impossible without full knowledge of the Dark Side of the Force...), Darth Sidious and Darth Vader have different points of view: they are in different positions, amongst many other things. Darth Sidious and Darth Vader, on the other hand, are in the SAME inertial reference frame, namely the Devastator. If the Accuser were to travel alongside the Devastator at the same speed and same direction as the Executor, even if the two Star Destroyers were several lightyears away, then Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, the Devastator, and the Accuser would all share the same inertial reference frame. In short, if two different entities share a common, constant velocity relative to one other object, then the two aforementioned entities share the same inertial reference frame. Things get weird as light, the lack of an "ether," and time are taken into account, but in the blissfully ignorant world of Newtonian physics, mechanical relativity is relatively simple while time scales are absolute.
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Dec 28, 2009 0:53:48 GMT -5
Hence why i remain an engineer and not a philsoipher.
Heres one. Presuming the UNSC Forward Unto Dawn and the Truth and Reconciliation are, for hypothetical reasons, the same tonnage, and are both moving through slipspace from the same point to the same point, which one would arrive first?
Well the answer is simple. First, i want to know if anyone can guess the answer.
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Post by General Veers on Dec 28, 2009 13:40:54 GMT -5
Actually, I would have to argue that you have more philosophy while all I mention is Galilean relativity (which is a part of Newtonian mechanics). Oh well, that's relativity of subject matter for you...
When you say that Forward Unto Dawn and Truth and Reconciliation are both the same tonnage, are you talking about weight or mass? If you refer to weight, then are these forces (remember: weight is a force) relative to the constant gravity of some common body, e.g. the same planet? Also, are we going to ignore the assumptions that imaginary time (any unit of time multiplied by the imaginary unit (-1) 1/2) is impossible AND that effects can precede the events that cause them (e.g. when Event A is the only event that causes Event B, can Event B precede Event A?) while considering slipstreams, slipspace, spacestreams, and velocities above c, where c is the speed of light in a vacuum? If not, then I am incapable of answering your question without someone first providing a reliable, accurate alternative to Einsteinian physics.
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Post by GGoodie on Dec 28, 2009 13:49:30 GMT -5
False. No matter what you compare it to, the car is still moving 65 mph. It would be moving relatively compared to other moving things, but it would still be moving a certain speed. The only way to say it was moving -25 mph faster than the car moving 90 mph.
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Post by General Veers on Dec 28, 2009 14:09:08 GMT -5
Yes, it is moving at a particular speed, but whose measure of the speed is the "correct" speed? According to you, all measures must be taken relative to the highway in order to be correct.
[sarcasm]Is the highway the figurative center of the universe, Almighty One? Is the highway holier than us, since measures relative to it are better than measures relative to anything in different reference frames?[/sarcasm]
A measure in an inertial reference frame is equally valid as a measure in any other inertial reference frame.
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Post by izacque on Dec 28, 2009 14:25:21 GMT -5
lol.
So, what's the point? Everything physical is relative, and -- unless you're religious -- everything non-physical is also relative. therefore... ?
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Dec 31, 2009 18:32:49 GMT -5
Veers, you're going about it the wrong way.
The UNSC Forward Unto Dawn is a Frigate. The Truth and Reconciliation is a Capital Cruiser. Besides, Covenant slipspace technology has always been more precise and fast than the UNSC's Shaw-Fujikawa.
Example; After the Battle for Reach, the recently refit UNSC Pillar of Autumn, a Halcyon Class Cruiser, jumped to randomized coordinates as-per the Cole Protocol. The fact that the coordinates were actually taken from a recovered artifact and not randomized brought the Autumn upon Installation 04.
I'm not sure if they were followed, or if thats even possible. But you get the idea.
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Post by General Veers on Dec 31, 2009 19:02:20 GMT -5
Well, ignoring Einsteinian physics entirely and simply working under the assumption that any one interval of time is the same length in all inertial reference frames, do these two ships start and end with the same speed (or maybe one ship start with the same speed the other ends with and ends with the same speed the other starts with)? If so, then I do believe that your two ships will reach your destination point simultaneously.
Remember that, since I am ignoring Einsteinian physics entirely, simultaneity in one inertial reference frame means simultaneity in all inertial reference frames...
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Jan 3, 2010 14:38:35 GMT -5
We can't fully be sure of that, General. Whatever they know about those ships, the ONI spooks have kept it locked down tight. Typical.
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Post by General Veers on Jan 3, 2010 19:11:51 GMT -5
In that case, I do not believe your question can be answered without my having to extensively research each of those ships, compare the physics of Halo to that of what we perceive to be reality, etc.
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Jan 4, 2010 18:30:20 GMT -5
To be honest, i just don't recall exactly how the events happened.
Here's a more realistic question. If the UNSC In Amber Clad and the UNSC Forward Unto Dawn, both Frigates, carrying the exact same loads, were to both jump away from Earth to another inner colony world, ignoring the shifts that occur in slipspace, would they both arrive at the same time?
The answer truly depends. The Cole Protocol dictates that a ship must first jump to randomized coordinates not directed towards any Human colony before making a jump to any inner colony world. XD
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Post by Sandmaster on Jan 21, 2010 15:29:07 GMT -5
You guys just figured this out?
*sigh*
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Post by General Veers on Jan 21, 2010 17:18:33 GMT -5
No, we just then posted it. I have known this for quite a while. We all have known Galilean relativity ever since our first physics problems.
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