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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 9, 2010 10:49:27 GMT -5
I was saying that moving elements can cause it to output in different directions, by changing which corners are not "empty". so the direction of outputs can change depending on what corners are "filled"
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Post by miczu on Apr 9, 2010 14:36:42 GMT -5
Memzak about my crystal simulator, I lost the source code with disk format so it would be hard to add anything to it. But CS was practically my fist bigger application on java and there are lots of things I wouldn't do if I had time to redo it all. It wasn't capable to work with bigger screen so I was for some time trying to remake it, but didn't have time and lost interest. XOR and OR with only NAND's
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Post by microfarad on Apr 9, 2010 15:57:46 GMT -5
Well, have we reached a consensus? Do we like crystal? Do we want NAND? Or would we like more time to discuss it? I will fully support whatever is decided in this thread.
Oh, and I might (possibly) make a NAND simulator.
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 9, 2010 19:47:12 GMT -5
well, you can definitaly make a nand out of crystal(assuming you can give it a starting input), and you can definitly make a xor an ands with nand... I think the changing(dynamic?) direction of outputs for nand would be pretty cool...(ought it be called generator or something?).
Im working on something that should be usable to simulate pg tech elements, the user defines how each element works with lua functions... but its not quite working, and it would only be in exe form if it was...
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Post by microfarad on Apr 9, 2010 21:34:08 GMT -5
LUA functions??? (Edit: Lua, like this: www.lua.org/, they do not want it to be called LUA, it is not an acronym/abbreviation, it is Portuguese for Moon, and is thus a proper noun, the first letter should be, and alone be, capitalized. Can you tell me more about Lua?) .exe is fine I am concerned that the dynamic gates would be A. To hard to program, and thus our idea would be rejected. B. Not very useful (why would you have a gate change configurations?) C. Not very easy to understand Despite these concerns, I am still willing to consider the dynamic NAND gate, but I think we would need to know EXACTLY how it would work and WHY it would be useful.
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 11, 2010 0:37:37 GMT -5
each dot of nand would have 8 spots it would check the contents of (these would be the ones surrounding that dot of NAND as you probably guessed).
==type of output== First it would check if any of these are torch, so that it has both capabilities for laser and thunder, and this will determine whether it outputs laser or thunder.
==direction of output and when to output== The directions that output can be emitted is determined by which of the dots diagonal to the NAND are not empty. This is the part that allows for the direction of the output of the gates to change dynamically, (although I am not sure I am using the word dynamically correctly) because whether these corners are empty can be changed with powders and laser and such. These diagonals will be henceforth referred to as c(1) c(2) c(3) and c(4). The dots surrounding the nand that are not diagonal to it will be henceforth referred to as s(1) s(2) s(3), and s(4) these are in the arrangement of c(1)|s(1)|c(2) ----------------- s(4)|nand|s(2) ------------------ c(4)|s(3)|c(3)
if c(n) is empty(or possibly if it is non-charged glass, Im not sure about that case) and the nand is not being "hit" by more than one dot of thunder and/or laser in that frame, then the nand will output in the direction s(n).(this is assuming that n is 1,2,3, or 4)
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Post by microfarad on Apr 11, 2010 15:57:27 GMT -5
Hmmm, it seems cumbersome, how would that be helpful? I have a good way of defining which way the NAND outputs, what is wrong with it?
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Post by miczu on Apr 11, 2010 16:51:21 GMT -5
Though I would like answer of my first set of questions, I have a suggestion: If you could use glass and lighten up glass as a input or output it would be probably really usable at some point, like converting thunder in glass back to thunder form...
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 13, 2010 17:55:05 GMT -5
micro Farad although I dont see a problem with your defining of nand outputs, I think that the way I suggested would have additional uses added from mobile elements(meaning non solid ones) passing through spaces diagonal to NAND. for example, if you had a line of nand, and laser shot right next to it, if would fire laser out in the direction that the laser was in a frame before (so if there was a horizontal line of nand, and laser was "shot" right above it, it would fire a sequence or lasers up, in the order that the horizontal laser get to their corners) Also, I believe that this way pretty much covers all ways that people can put the element in contact with, other than reactions with standards, so for that whatever seems would be most likely to get in for the standard reactions with acid virus bomb etc. EDIT: how would mercury work in your situation? a simpler way to describe the ouput directions in mine in the next spot around in a clockwise direction
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Post by microfarad on Apr 13, 2010 18:38:47 GMT -5
I guess I just want an example, diagrams?
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 14, 2010 17:42:25 GMT -5
this file has a diagram of what corners cause what output directions. It also has an example if a 3 way splitter(really, you can make it as many as you want, by just making more nands that the laser goes next to, as when they are diagonal to it they will cause it to output in a direction, as they have no inputs), a NOT, an AND(just put a not and a NAND together, but its not much bigger) Please note that these assume that NAND uses laser normally, and uses torch if you need thunder, however, the one that is the default doesn't really matter, and these examples dont need much adaption to use thunder instead, or to include the torch. If you cant read my pixel writing please tell me. Also, you will likely have to zoom in, unless you like looking at individual pixels on your screen. (there are also some patterns I was working with that are unrelated) Attachments:
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Post by microfarad on Apr 14, 2010 18:17:50 GMT -5
You lost all the image quality when you saved it as a JPEG, can you do something about that?
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 14, 2010 20:54:25 GMT -5
heres a png version Attachments:
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Post by microfarad on Apr 17, 2010 9:18:30 GMT -5
I took the liberty of making these diagrams readable. And now I am confuzzled... WHAT, HOW, HUH? Nothing lines up!!! ??? !!! ??? !!! ??? Attachments:
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Post by droctagonapus on Apr 17, 2010 12:56:59 GMT -5
ok, Ill explain the not first: you see the NAND above the anydot and to the left? if you look at the chart explaining the directions,you will see that that outputs down, towards the other nand, making it so the lower nand always has at least 1 input, (assuming the top NAND gets none) The any dot is above and to the right of the nand, which, as the chart shows, makes it output right, seeing as it gets a one from above, it outputs if it does not get a different input, A NOT.
the AND just ads another NAND to the NOT, making an AND.
The splitter just takes advantage of the direction of output depending on what corners are filled, the input laser never actually collides with a NAND, it just passes through the corners next to one, causing it to include that direction in the directions that it is outputting(as it has no "inputs") I actually just realized a problem with it, both of the NANDs in the splitter should have metal under them so that they do not output downwards, and possibly hit something(like the other nand)
if there is nothing diaganal to the NAND it will not output, no matter its inputs, because it has no direction in which to output, the splitter I showed cause laser to temporarily give the NANDs an output direction.
EDIT: oh, and thanks for making it more readable. (btw, I dont actually look at the chart of output directions, I just remember its the next of the 8 spots is a clockwise direction)
EDIT: if you get it now, or still dont get it, please tell me
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Post by microfarad on Apr 20, 2010 17:32:10 GMT -5
I understand their principals now, but the AND would likely not work because the laser coming from the NAND never actually travels anywhere. I find it interesting that the laser would count as something that affects the NAND's state, and this is a point to debate on. In all however, I understand the principals of your element. I believe now that this debate lies between our two methods of implementing a NAND element. I shall name my method the orientation determined NAND (ODNAND), and yours shall be the corner determined NAND (CDNAND).
I believe at this point that this debate's ground is focused on the ODNAND and CDNAND. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each.
ODNAND advantages----- can work as well with thunder or Laser converts laser to thunder and visa versa can act as a 3 way splitter alone disadvantages----- fixed, not dynamic
CDNAND advantages----- dynamic multiple outputs possible logical medium can affect gate outputs seems more in the spirit of other PG elements disadvantages----- only works with laser only works as a 2 way splitter alone
I think this is actually a fairly even match, and I'm not sure which side I'm advocating. To me, the ODNAND seems cleaner, less confusing, and more versatile. On the other hand, CDNAND is interesting because of it's "dynamicness". I say we draw more people into this debate, and then when the result is determined we can all petition for it's inclusion within the Powder Game.
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Post by miczu on Apr 21, 2010 7:21:11 GMT -5
In my mind small, fast and reliable laser/thunder thunder/laser converters are the thing that makes Micro Farads design the better one.
But there is still big chance to make it even better and the main way to make it so, is to think up something for bigger structures of the NAND - not only 1 dot of it, but like complex shapes of it...
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Apr 21, 2010 7:41:19 GMT -5
Agreed. A small laser to thunder and visa versa is extremely useful. That's not even including the other functions it can do.
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Post by microfarad on Apr 21, 2010 8:29:22 GMT -5
I'm so glad this thread has so much involvement. So, we will work off of ODNAND. There are still modifications we can make to it, I will think today about the issue and come back to you with any ideas.
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Post by miczu on Apr 21, 2010 14:37:14 GMT -5
Here are some live examples of NAND structures, try to think what will those do: Of course top left is simple nand with "defined" two inputs (left and right) and output on top. Others are some structures that maybe can do something good if we think about it... #edit Maybe to the analogy to Laser - Metal OR gate, this structure from NAND and turch: Will work as NOR gate? If from diagonal enters a laser beam the output is negated... The lower parts are 2 inputs for NOR and and output is on the top: IN1|IN2|OUT _0_|_0_|_1_ _0_|_1_|_0_ _1_|_0_|_0_ _1_|_1_|_0_
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