Is There A God?

[SilentWaves]

I agree! People take it to seriously when it should be just values. You don't see people worshiping luke skywalker for HIS values...

[Sandmaster]

I figured it out!

Jesus was praised for his unnaturally low density! This allowed him to float on top of water, and after death to rise in the air!

PROBLEM SOLVED!

And with the whole water-wine thing, maybe he secreted alcohol...

[The Dark Master]

Lol yeah....

I've noticed a rather strange thing. 1/3 of the population of the world is Christian, and we live in the Western World, where Christianity is very popular. Yet, how are most people here atheist and the minority christian?

[FoxtrotZero]

Oct 4, 2009 7:43:28 GMT -5 SilentWaves said:

I agree! People take it to seriously when it should be just values. You don't see people worshiping luke skywalker for HIS values...

Thats because Luke Skywalker ended up going to the dark side, believing it was the only way he could save Leia...

And anyway, it has to do with where you go. Especially on the Internet. Most people on the Internet are Athiest, or at the least not devout to a religion (if that word means what i think it does).

You go to a church and those people are religious. It all depends on where you go - and the internet is a vast place.

[Qwerty]

Foxtrot, please learn some star wars history before commenting on it.

Anakin (sp?) went to the dark side, not Luke. Remember the whole "Luke, I am your father" thing?

Also, it's Lea, not Lela. I hope Veers doesn't see this...

Anyway, thing with polls is, people who are atheist will often just dismiss it as garbage and throw them out. Not always, and I know it's extreme generalization. It just seems to explain much.

[Sandmaster]

Oct 4, 2009 15:06:12 GMT -5 The Dark Master said:

Lol yeah....

I've noticed a rather strange thing. 1/3 of the population of the world is Christian, and we live in the Western World, where Christianity is very popular. Yet, how are most people here atheist and the minority christian?

Atheism is the fastest growing belief/lack-of-belief in the world. And of course, Atheism is more popular in urbanized areas, meaning more access to internet.

[Buggy793X]

I'm too lazy to log in. The 'X' at the end of the name is so I can post.
This would probably be considered a bump of epic proportion, but I really don't care right now. Anyways...

I'm back for this post, then I'll forget about this thread forever again, rinse, lather, repeat.
I've looked into this a bit more and now accept the Big Band as truth. Don't get your hopes up. I'm still an old-earth creationist, and I still believe in God. It happens that the Big Bang was not a chaotic event, but a rather organized expansion beginning in a hot, bright explosion. Let there be light, eh?

@foxtrot
That's kinda what the Catholic Church did back then. Corrupted the Bible's teachings/values to gain political power. That's kinda why a guy you may have heard of named Martin Luther started this thing called Protestantism. To stop the corruption and let people put the Bible to the test.
That thing you said about not being educated in science, keep in mind that the Greeks didn't believe Jesus. Why? They didn't believe that people just rise from the grave or do the miraculous things Jesus did, such as walk on water.

"Most people on the internet are atheist..."
That's because you look for Atheism on the internet. Looking around, I would say there are about equal on each side of this debate. I'll admit, the atheists seem to have better arguments, but really it's just hoping that either:
-the universe is infinite
-there are multiple universes
-evolution beat the odds and had a nice quiet beginning in a nice warm pool
-or that it really is just a coincidence that we "happen" to be in the exact spot in the universe, in an exact spot in a galaxy where our star won't be swept into the arms or cortex of the galaxy, with just the right type of star(which is rare), and just the right physics, exactly the right size moon and elements on our planet, a planet is big as Jupiter just happens to have a near-perfectly circular orbit, same with Saturn, we have the perfect atmosphere, and that we "just happen" to have not nearly enough Nitrogen in our atmosphere for there to have been amino acid-filled warm pools

Besides that, atheists have perfectly reasonable arguments.
The universe is not infinite. It does not go through a expand/contract infinite cycle. There is background radiation from the Big Bang, which means there was a beginning to the universe. This fact is accepted by many atheists.
Dark Matter(The stuff between the stars and planets) has some interesting characteristics. As it stretches, it gains more energy TO expand. The universe is a reverse rubber band. It's growing exponentially, which means the edge of the universe will eventually reach the speed of light(That's really cool ).

@vinster
lol Low-density Jesus... xD

@kuraioorora
"The concept would exist because it is instinctively humanely wrong. And you're not getting my point on a world of Atheism. Certain individuals will always rebel from what they are taught."
-Kurai

This is exactly why(as Vinster mentioned) atheism is the fastest growing belief in the world. A few years ago, American Atheist(the most popular atheistic magazine) sent out an article saying(largely paraphrased):
You know, we've noticed that most of our subscribers are ex-christians or parents of Christians. Could it be that we aren't atheists because of our intelligence, but because we want to rebel against what we taught?

How many people responded? One guy saying: No! That's not me at all! How dare you judge me!?(Again, hugely paraphrased)

Well, they looked into him, and he was right. He didn't have Christian parents. He had orthodox Jewish parents. Yeah, they way off.

On world-ending predictions:
Nostradamus, Mayan calendars, all complete junk. Nostradamus knew that eventually something would fit the characteristics of his predictions, so he wrote them. Also, as fore-mentioned, they are vague. EXTREMELY vague.
For example, I could say:
The sand shall crumble and towers shall fall,
But it's maker shall make it, to spread it to all.

That could mean anything! I don't even know what that meant!
As for the Mayan calendars, just read this. I'm too lazy to summarize it:
www.reasons.org/response-2012-prophecies
Yes, it's a Christian site, but it still relevant.

K. I'm tired of typing, and it's getting too cold. This will be the end of my post.
Feel free to respond and all that jazz.

[Qwerty]

*responds and all that jazz*

With the thing with the arguments, the funny thing is, the atheists think the same exact thing about you. Note that the astronomers who are actually experts in those things you speak of are largely atheist, or at least, not young-earth creationist.

[izacque]

Evolution as our origin is garbage, complete and utter nonsense. Let's look at only one example. the creation of the first eukaryote. Our story begins in some primeval amino-acid filled pool (which buggy so kindly told us could not exist) the amino acids spontaneously link together and become the proteins necessary to form RNA polymerase. At the same time (and in the same area) all four of the DNA base pair types (which conveniently fit together) spontaneously link toge into random strings of DNA. Meanwhile, some more amino acids spontaneously link themselves to become tRNA, all using 3-base codons and carrying unique amino acids. The RNA polymerase randomly attaches to the DNA (which was made in no particular order as you recall) and begins to make mRNA. wouldn't you know it, but it those DNA base pairs actually managed to create a useful piece of DNA? Well, the mRNA is made, and it freely floats around until it runs into a transcription enzyme that had previously formed itself from amino acids just like all the other enzymes. That enzyme just happens to fit the mRNA and the tRNA perfectly and one protein is formed. This whole process is repeated for the thousands of proteins that make up the first cell. These proteins spontaneously assemble into the correct form for this first cell. BUT WAIT! we're not finished yet! Our cell, like most living things needs food. so, it swallowed a cell (which was made in the same entirely random way that our cell was). instead of digesting its food, like most living organisms, our cell let the other cell live inside it. the other cell, instead of doing what it was designed to do (making ATP for itself out of the glucose that was floating in the pool) decided to give all its ATP to our cell. Another thing organisms do is reproduce. our cell is great at that. as our cell reproduces, the cell he swallowed (known from here on out as mitochondria) decides to reproduce too. it just so happens that they both reproduce at the same time. It just so happens that there is always one mitochondria on one side, and another on the other.

In other words, one million birds flew over a field, pooping. it just so happened that their crap made the Mona Lisa.

ALTERNATE STORY

God made the universe

in other words, Leonardo painted the Mona Lisa

[Priok]

I think the whole idea of God a long time ago, or whenever the idea of religion came about, is that he's(or they) are what cause things to happen, and the nature around you. But people started taking the Gods too seriously, and thinking of them as real "people." I'm an Atheist, I don't really see any proof for Gods existing. I just see it as people taking them way too much as real beings.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just an idea I'd like to share, and maybe someone else has had similar feelings. Or can help me better understand the idea of Gods creating the world, as I've never really gotten into reading the ideas listed in religious books.

[izacque]

God made the world in six days. Six thousand years later, I started typing this message for the dan-ball forums. That is the basic view of creationism. IMO, if we're here, yet it is ridiculously unlikely that we came here via big bang / evolution, that means increadibly likely that there is a God. By God, I mean an intelligent entity that existed before the creation of the universe we live in.

[GGoodie]

The Bible is garbage. Think about it. If the God is perfect, shouldn't the bible be as well? Yet when you read it you see many occasions of washed up, now extinct beliefs. The Bible is anti-gay, anti-feminism, and pro-slavery. Not to mention it is quite self contradictory.

[izacque]

The Bible is perfect. Anti-gay is your definition of a washed-up extinct belief. The bible sees it as a concrete moral. There are great examples of woman leaders in the Bible. One woman saved her country from destruction by leading an army against the enemy when the general (male) wanted to surrender. Pro-Slavery? Pft! Read Exodus and then come back to me about the bible being Pro-slavery. Do you think that morals are not concrete? That society determines true morals? That is a moral is true, then society will accept it forever?

[GGoodie]

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

maybe you should read Exodus. All of that is for slavery

[Sandmaster]

Oh my goodness you came at a TERRIBLE time, izacque.

Exodus was not a message against slavery. It was because the Jews happened to be hanging around in Egypt for about TWO FUNDRED F*CKING YEARS and didn't do anything. So I think you should try reading Exodus yourself.

Oh, and concrete morals? Did you know that there's this thing called 'History' which shows that morals have, in fact, changed?

Get a high school education before you come back.

[izacque]

You are assuming that the "slavery" mentioned in the bible is the same as the slavery surrounding the American civil war. The slavery back then was more like lower-class work is now (like a maid, or a workman for hire) The only difference was that these "slaves" signed themselves into contracts for a set amount of time.
The "day or two" was meant to keep people from saying, "My brother's master struck him for disobeying, and then 3 months later died. IT WAS THE MASTERS FAULT!!!!!!!!!" Deuteronomy 17:8-11 provides for someone to go to the elders and assert that the death really was the master's fault. It the elders can't decide the cause if death, they were to ask God. Exodus 21:26-27 says that if the master gives his slave a permanent injury, the slave is free. Just like that.
There was the American civil war type slavery mentioned in Exodus. It was the Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews. If you read about the ten plagues and the red sea, I think God was kinda mad...


EDIT: Ninja'd -.- You know why the isrealites went to egypt? because they had a relative there who was second in comand. Guess what happened when he died? The new guy said,"Dang that's a lot of Jews. we better enslave them before they start thinking they can overthrow us, or somethin'" (see the more formalized version in Exodus 1:6-10) Notice the last part in verse 10 where he doesn't want the Hebrews to leave.

[GGoodie]

Actually, slavery back then is the same as slavery that im talking about. Its not like a worker for hire. The person did not have a choice. They were bought and sold. They were property of whoever owned them. In Russia, under Orthodox Church, killing of a slave was less punishable then cutting off a free mans beard. It was even less punishable then cutting off a mans fingers.

[izacque]

Russia? Wrong period in history man. Domestic slaves were treated civilly. military slaves were treated much like our own POWs.
Don't you two see? the Christian god is unchanging. Therefore his expectations do not change. So, even though society's morals change, his are concrete. If you believe the bible's morals are true, then it isn't filled with out-dated morals. Society is filled with new, ridiculous morals.

[GGoodie]

Im talking about early Russia, right after the iconoclast controversy that split the Catholic Church. I know my world history man, trust me. (BTW, Russia was not at war during this time period, and was especially not modern enough to be taking POW's as countries do today.)

Societies morals today that seem to be stressed frequently include respecting authority, tolerating diversity, and accepting yourself and others. That doesn't mean everyone follows them. In Biblical times, Judaism, Islam, etc.. were not accepted much of at all. "Christian" morals caused a thousand years of social and scientific oppression that set society backwards. Not to mention how corrupt Popes have been throughout history.

[izacque]

I don't think we're on the same page. I was talking about the time of Moses, when Exodus was written. At that time, Hebrew treatment of domestic slaves was civil.

You mentioned it in your own post. Corruption! Christian Morals do not, in themselves, cause the oppression, it is corrupt humans who try to force their own version of christian morals on others. And can we not use Catholics as an example of what Christianity is? No offense to the Catholics out there, but a lot of their beliefs are not biblical, and most of the corruption we see throughout history stems from the catholic church.

This is kind of off topic, anyway. What we're debating is whether or not the bible is pro-slavery, and whether or not God's morals apply to our society. We should be proving/disproving the existence of God. Haven't heard from any evolutionists for a while. anyone care to talk science?