Is There A God?

[GGoodie]

Well, for one, you compare evolution to randomly creating the Mona Lisa. Let me compare Evolution to this, to put it more in context

You have an infinite amount of monkeys, all sitting at typewriters. You have an infinite amount of time, and an infinite amount of supplies. Eventually one of these monkeys will type say, Romeo And Juliet. The infinite amount of monkeys shows that an infinite amount of tries, and chemicals combining randomly, (pushing random keys on the typewriter) Creation of life had to happen, if not on Earth, it would have been on some other planet, and through those conditions we would have turned out different. In fact, life has almost certainly happened multiple times, in multiple places. We currently are seeing if life may have attempted to start on Mars, which is a possibility.

Think of it this way, if your into math. You are using the digits 1-9. You are randomly going to put numbers into digits, for an unlimited amount of time. You will eventually get the sequence of 123456789.

I guess i don't understand how the Bible represents God. Teachings, the Bible, and logic all contradict each other.

One more thing. If God exists, why doesn't he send us proof. Some rock solid evidence, right now, to every non-believer. Unless he doesn't care if we believe, which means no one goes to Hell. Because According to Martin Luther, (and Jesus) the only thing God won't forgive, is atheism. But if God doesn't want us to be atheists, then he should show people they are wrong. He should make himself known to all, if he does exist. Blind faith isn't something many people want to ride on, so he, if he does exist, should not expect us to. After all, if he created us, he should know everything about us, including our tendency to explain things scientifically.

[/textwall] GGoodie out

[izacque]

Error. Infinity. Given an infinite amout of monkeys, an infinite amount of them would type romeo and juliet the first time without any mistake. You can't use infinity to describe anything in our universe. Also. There is not an infinite amount of time. You have a time frame. make life too soon, and the universe isn't stable enough to suport it. Make life too late, and there's not enough energy to support rapid development, so the best you can hope for is some algea.

"But there are so many planets" True, but how many of them are:
"in an exact spot in a galaxy where our star won't be swept into the arms or cortex of the galaxy, with just the right size moon, jut the right distance away. and our planet just the right distance from the sun, a planet is big as Jupiter just happens to have a near-perfectly circular orbit, same with Saturn, we have the perfect atmosphere, and that we "just happen" to have not nearly enough Nitrogen in our atmosphere for there to have been amino acid-filled warm pools"

In other words, God will do what you want him to do? God wants trust from us. More importantly, he wants us to be free to make our own decision to take that leap of faith. If God showed himself to each new generation, where would the faith be? The christian Religion is based on faith.

[GGoodie]

Um first of all, you aren't getting the metaphor, i can use infinity to describe something. There IS and infinite amount of time. From when the universe started, and on forever. And there are a infinite amount of planets to support life. You aren't looking in different stages of time. The universe is expanding, make more and more solar systems and planets. Throughout time, there will be an infinite amount of planets that will be able to support life. Life would have been created somewhere eventually. There will be life forms somewhere else in some other time asking these same questions we are now, because chances are, we are not the only ones who will go through evolution like this. Other life forms will have a similar turn of events

And actually, organic compounds are made up of mostly carbon (on earth, that is) not nitrogen

[izacque]

But you don't get my metaphor. I compared the first eukaryote to the mona lisa. (in reality, the mona lisa is nowhere near complex enough to be an accurate equality, but it serves my purpose.) Bird flocking and crapping is random behavior. This random behavior created someting complex bit by bit.
Matter and energy cannot be created. they can only be converted into each other. Much of our energy is lost to space as heat. this heat expands with the universe, a lot of it never coming into contact with matter again. That's why the universe is cooling. Less heat = less energy = less resources for the development of life. So, there is a due date for life. If you wait a quadrillion years, I doubt there'll be enough energy on most planets to keep a small field mouse alive.

Lol. I'm not gonna argue the Nitrogen point, because I don't know what it means I just put it there because since it was a quote, I wouldn't have to worry about its "wrongness" reflecting on me.

[GGoodie]

>.> i don't think you understand the concept for the universe expanding... Its not "running out" of energy. We don't lose much of our energy to space as heat either. Here on earth we keep more then enough. Its planets without atmospheres that lose heat. There is no due date for life.

And i understand your metaphor, it is similar to mine, but we both put them in a way that they back up our respective points. You say the random creation is highly unlikely. I say its highly unlikely, but eventually it will happen.

[avenger]

im just guna come traight out with my opinion agian..........


I think there is no god

[Qwerty]

Exactly. Simple carbon dating. You debunk somethings beginnings, and you debunk the whole thing.

[Very lazyBuggy793]

@farty Pants
You said most astronomers are atheists or non-young earth creationist. That's true! Most astronomers are old earth creationists(Like me!). Not atheists, though. I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I'll find the statistics on it later.

'K. The thing about Nitrogen:
All amino acids are based on Nitrogen. You won't be able to get around that fact. As amino acids degrade(as you should know, there is a tendency toward disorder and degradation naturally), they give off Nitrogen, which means that our atmosphere should be stuffed at the rafters with Nitrogen, but as you'll notice as you take a breath, is isn't.

If you could give us an example of proof that the universe is eternal, that would be great, but you haven't given us a model of the universe to look into.
Please just don't say it's one of the outdated oscillating universe models Hinduism made up. (smacks forehead)
Besides, you said that the universe is expanding. Go back in time, and you'll find this thing called a beginning.

And actually, organic compounds are made up of mostly carbon (on earth, that is) not nitrogen

On Earth, eh? No. ALL life must be based on carbon. Since you're saying this, maybe you don't understand something:
Our planet is rare. REALLY rare. (as described in my last post)
Our star is rare. There may be a lot of stars in their middle ages- like ours- but not in this time frame of the middle ages or our star's size. If our star were a lot larger(which is very common), then we would be roasted. If we got moved back in order to compensate for the "slight" heat problem, then the star would supernova and kill us anyways eventually. If our star were much smaller(which is EXTREMELY common, ask any astronomer), then we would freeze. If we move closer to the star to compensate for heat, the occasional flares would kill us either way.
If our star were in a cluster, then the rapid changing of orbit would kill us(use your imagination)

As for the rest of our planets, someone brought up the point that there are too many. They also prove that there's a God who cares for us. Each of those planets have a near-perfect circular orbit, which means they won't interfere with our orbit. They also act as a shield for the ten-thousand something asteroids that cross our orbit's path. (Don't correct me on the number of asteroids. There are a lot) We have two HUGE gas giants that act as shields. These two gas giants are one of a kind. They are the size of elephants compared to our planet, which is rare with our kind planet.

We have a moon, which is humongous than what would be expected of a planet our size. Look at the rest of our planets and their moons. Big differences there.

To sum this up, Carl Sagan(Self-proclaimed agnostic and astronomer, astrophysicist) and Iosif Sgklovsky(Couldn't find beliefs, but he is a credible astronomer) thought up guess as to how common a life-promoting planet might be, using only two parameters. TWO. A planet at the right distance from a star, and the type of star. They came up with the number 0.001%.
Keeping in mind that even this is an insanely large number compared to what it should be.
In Hugh Ross'(Old earth creationist and has a PH.D. in astronomy, and he's an astrophysicist), book, The Creator and the Cosmos, using quite a few more parameters(128), estimated the chance of the type of universe and physics, and planet that we have is right in the range of:
10^-166
In other words:
One chance in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion exists one planet would occur ANYWHERE in the universe.
If you're interested, he also estimated that the maximum number of planets in the universe is 10^22.

Think of it this way, if your into math...

You kind of have to be into all sorts of science if you're going to debate here


izacque, I would highly suggest looking into old earth creationism vs. new earth creationism a bit more.
I apologize if you're already an old earth creationist, but you said the big bag never happened, so I assume not.

Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa, everyone.
Feel free to criticize...
-Buggy

[GGoodie]

Buggy, our Atmosphere is 78% nitrogen.

Each of those planets have a near-perfect circular orbit, which means they won't interfere with our orbit.

Not really, no. They aren't really circular. Also, Pluto and Neptune's orbits intersect.

Our planet is rare. REALLY rare. (as described in my last post)

Im not disagreeing with you. Any planet that supports life is. The thing is, is that no matter what. At some point in time, life would happen, somewhere in the universe. The thing you seem to think is so impossible, happened, and it just so happened to happen here. See this is quite like the logical falacy GV described in his thread. Your hypothesis is contradictory to fact. You can say how we shouldn't have been able to happen, or how rare it is that it did, but the fact is, it did. And seeing as neither side is going to budge on this part of the debate, i think i will focus more on some of the other topics you brought up.

You said most astronomers are atheists or non-young earth creationist. That's true! Most astronomers are old earth creationists(Like me!). Not atheists, though. I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I'll find the statistics on it later

Lol no i didn't... I think that was someone else.

BTW buggy, your fun to debate with. I actually have to think about it a bit to be able to respond to some of your comments. Its people like you who make your side of the arguement seem good.

[izacque]

I'm not too interested in Old-earth creationism because it's not aligned to the Bible.

[Qwerty]

Ah, of course it isn't. However, science has shown that the Earth actually has to be physically old, in ways that have already been covered here. So, new-earth creationism isn't exactly true, either. Not to say Religion isn't true, of course.

[FoxtrotZero]

I think we are adressing things wrong here. Not goal oriented.

The debate is upon weather or not God is real, and associated discussion. Not to say we are off topic, per se.

As was mentioned earlier, why would a god not show his existance. If god did indeed create us in his image and does indeed want us to follow his word, why does he leave it up to us to interpret his words through old books, while not making himself present whatsoever.

I go to, unwillingly, church, and what i see are blind ideas. Nay, what i see alot of the time are good morals from the bible, but they are shown through a blind faith. I guess its like the Matrix - not something you realise for yourself until you are woken up from it. And if someone walks up to you and says everything you know is a massive computer network, there is a plug in the back of your head and you are a battery, you would dismiss them as quickly as you had heard them.

If there is anything that anyone will say, it is that the bible, and the religions are OLD, as are the Koran and the various other holy documents.

Lets think. Back in time where the world was a brutal place, and there was no order. And the people are not very intelligent. So a man comes along, intending to teach people good morals. I don't know where the whole god story really came from, but for whatever reason, thats how it was written. And people believed it. I'm not a historian, so i can't recall the events leading up to this, but it all leads up to this logically.

Lets jump ahead a few hundred years. The mideval ages. Life is good, living in stone houses and eating mutton in the rolling hills of middle england. These people were ruled by a king, and the king's excuse? God speaks through me. The people here at this time believed in god, and in the bible, and some guy got people to believe that he is God's messenger. Lets not forget the ancient aztec kings who would get so binge drunk that the gods spoke through them. There is a reason wines are called spirits.

Lets jump ahead to the 1700s. The foundation of the english colonies and the seperation of These United States of America. Based on what? Christian principles, as these men were all christian. But we have the seperation of church and state, and religious freedom. It has taken, at this point, THOUSANDS of years only to break the hold of these false beliefs only so much, and christianity is by far STILL the most common religion in the world.

So i say it now. As we usher into new ages of logic and technology, these fantasy beliefs will shake off. If there was a god, if your god existed, would he allow his faith to die? Would he allow the population of this planet to be segregated amongst their beliefs for these thousands of years, only to become yet another shackle broken and obstacle overcome by mankind? I think not. Your great god, should he exist, has failed to make any recognition of his existance in hundreds of lifetimes.

And now, for the hell of it. Where is your god now?

EDIT: LMFAO, PAGE SIXTY-NINE! XD XD XD

Oh, and you know what?

i think String Theory is stupid. I also think the Big Bang theory is illogical, but the best idea we've come up with yet.

Big Bang Theory: In the beginning, there was nothing. Which exploded.

String Theory: Imagine all matter was arranged into two walls of fluxuating strings. What would that imply?

[GGoodie]

You extremely dumbed down those two theories... and you didn't even get the big bang theory right...

[Qwerty]

Heh, XKCD. Gotta love it.

He didn't get it exactly right, but somewhat close. It doesn't exactly say that there was nothing, we just don't know what there was or if there was anything.

[Buggy793]

String theory: you over simplified. It's not just what you described. There several. For example, 10-dimensional string theory. I don't even quite get it, so I won't try to explain.

As was mentioned earlier, why would a god not show his existance. If god did indeed create us in his image and does indeed want us to follow his word, why does he leave it up to us to interpret his words through old books, while not making himself present whatsoever.

Because. Think of this way. If God were to say to Stephen Hawking right now, "Stephen, I am God. Fear me, for I do indeed exist."
What would he do? He would try to explain it away. He would consider his friends playing a joke on him. Nothing would change.
Besides. God DID give us something physical to work with. The Bible, and Jesus, who died.

And if someone walks up to you and says everything you know is a massive computer network, there is a plug in the back of your head and you are a battery, you would dismiss them as quickly as you had heard them.

This cuts both ways, buddy. Think of this way. You think there is no God. But if there IS a God, and we've been telling you this all along, then you're still plugged into the matrix.

Lets think. Back in time where the world was a brutal place, and there was no order. And the people are not very intelligent. So a man comes along, intending to teach people good morals. I don't know where the whole god story really came from, but for whatever reason, thats how it was written. And people believed it. I'm not a historian, so i can't recall the events leading up to this, but it all leads up to this logically.

I'll finish this back home...

[Qwerty]

Wait, Buggy posted?

For this, I merely reference that one speech made by the one guy about being wrong about the great Ju-Ju at the bottom of the sea. I forgot the name.

[Air Alchemist 8]

Ok, gonna try this again. see if I know as much as I think I do.

can someone sum up where we are exactly on this debate? I don't want to read through 60-something pages worth of posts (many of which might be a bit painful for me to remember. cringe-worthy at my own stupidity from back then.)

[xShadowLordx]

Apr 3, 2010 9:28:15 GMT -5 Air Alchemist 8 said:

Ok, gonna try this again. see if I know as much as I think I do.

can someone sum up where we are exactly on this debate? I don't want to read through 60-something pages worth of posts (many of which might be a bit painful for me to remember. cringe-worthy at my own stupidity from back then.)

I was going to ask that exact same question. I wanna get into this...

[izacque]

Why don't we start back at square one? This post I believe is the last one On this page, the next page is a nice clean number. Let's DO this!

[Air Alchemist 8]

Ok then. Apologies to Qwerty as I don't mean to hijack, just wanna get the ball rolling again.

Let's start over: (but with old posts to quote back on)
Do you think there is a God? Why/Why not?


(I'm gonna stay silent for the first few redo posts)