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Post by izacque on Apr 6, 2010 16:00:48 GMT -5
I think there is a God be cause intelligent design is the most logical theory out there.
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Post by xShadowLordx on Apr 9, 2010 17:55:10 GMT -5
Well, here's something interesting. A lot of people say that religion and science cannot coexist. However, I believe that science is, in fact, a way to actually prove the existence of God. I've always been an investigative, inquisitive person. There are countless fundamental scientific laws and phenomena that, in my opinion, can only be explained by the existence of some supernatural being. We can start with basics. For example, the property of gravity. We know what gravity does. It is a scientific law that states all matter pulls on all other matter. But the question is, why What causes this mind-boggling force??? How about another, such as magnetism? Take two magnets, and attach them at opposite poles. Positive and negative attract. We know that. We know protons and electrons attract each other, etc. But why Try putting the same kind of poles together. They repel each other. But whyHow about another, the very structure of atoms themselves??? Everything in the universe, everything, is made of the exact same particles: Protons, Electrons, Neutrons, and various other particles. Yet, when put together in different ways, they create all different kinds of elements and substances! We humans are made of the exact same basic materials as everything else! The same material that burns in our sun! The same material in our mountains, our oceans. The same material in our atmosphere! How is this possible??? These are just a few of the fascinating, unexplainable things about science. And it is this unexplainability that proves there must be something supernatural controlling the universe. The answer absolutely must be a God of some sort. And of course, this ties into the intelligent design theory, as Izacque mentioned.
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Post by ownedbyglove on Apr 9, 2010 18:46:08 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with TSL in that science proves religion, Some people say: But the same stuff is in other religions! I take that as proof that the events really happened, as they were recorded by different people: that's my logic.
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Post by Air Alchemist 8 on Apr 9, 2010 19:57:05 GMT -5
(I know I said I'd wait for some posts and discussions to pass, but I do want to say stuff. I'll make an amendment to my previous post to the effect that I won't actually say my thoughts on the overall matter until the discussion has picked up.)
I agree with what you said about "science" and "religion" coexisting...in what you were obviously meaning to say.
You said that you believe science can prove God exists, which I also believe, under the right contexts. But mainly I just want to correct 2 things: first, Religion is not just a belief in God, but mainly the belief that he has a set way for us to live our lives with the promise of living with/becoming like him. And second, our earth-brand of "science" is a bit incorrect, and what we have right now I would disagree to proving God's existence. If we wish to find something pure, we should first purify ourselves (our thoughts), and then purify the process (our "science").
and also to give the beginnings of a different side of the discussion, the things you showed do not directly prove God's existence, only that there are still things we don't know.....(I would argue that's because of flaws in our "science"...but I'm gonna hold back my general thoughts until later.)
Anyhow, so far we've got 2 (and a half) thoughts on believing in God. Anyone who disagrees with these thoughts gonna speak up?
Edit:(I was still writing this before OBG posted...that's why this post doesn't seem to acknowledge him...)
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Post by izacque on Apr 25, 2010 14:43:08 GMT -5
Okay, I suppose I'll stick my neck out a little further. Evolution is a scientific joke. It has hardly any evidence supporting it and a great deal of evidence against it. Intelligent design makes perfect sense.
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Post by ownedbyglove on May 3, 2010 20:00:56 GMT -5
Ah.. Wait. I believe in evolution and intelligent design. a breath takes a few secomds. If a few seconds to god is 1000 years for, say, Noah, how long is six days for him? Religion and Science fill in each other's holes.
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Post by Qwerty on May 3, 2010 20:29:46 GMT -5
Well, not generally. It sorta flatly contradicts the Bible, for one. Sure, similar things happen in diferent religions, but isn't that sorta counteracted by the whole totally-different-religions thing? As in, they flatly contradict each other?
Izac, I'm afraid I have to contradict you here. Evolution has plenty of evidence towards it and nothing strong against it, while Intelligent Design seems just ridiculous, and has nothing supporting it. This statement has exactly as much weight as yours, as it is essentially the same thing.
So, yeah. This whole thread has turned into science-bashing with little to no evidence. Seriously, I haven't seen one fact or statistic mentioned here. Just "This obviously makes the most sense".
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Post by microfarad on May 3, 2010 20:41:42 GMT -5
Gonna rain on your party... I believe there is no God. Why? Because there is no compelling proof. We do not know WHY there is gravity, but that does not mean we can assume there is a God. You guys are trying to just tell me that since there are invisible unicorns (just assume it is true) they are by default, pink. Why? Because a thousand's year old dogma says so. Why aren't they blue or green I ask? And you reply, "because they just are pink, this thousands year old book says so". I respect the bible greatly, but as a literary piece, not as the center of a universe of arbitrary dogma. Why isn't God a huge crystal that lives in the center of the Earth? Because somebody said he lived way up in the air, and it stuck. Because people needed something to hope for, something to wish for, something to guide them. Religion is good at that. I see great merits for religion. But it is false.
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Post by Qwerty on May 3, 2010 20:43:10 GMT -5
If they are invisible, wouldn't they have no color at all?
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Post by microfarad on May 3, 2010 20:55:09 GMT -5
When I specify transparency I still must specify all other color components. Color is represented by Alpha Red Green Blue (ARGB). The RGB values are still defined, just not visible.
I'm sorry if my last post was insensitive. I respect religion greatly. I have been to church, and it is very compelling. It just makes no sense to me. My parents married as atheists. But my dad was raised catholic. This has recently resurfaced, and he is going to church again. It's difficult for me because I was raised atheistic. My mom's not so sure about it either. My dad has openly declared he accepts Christ as his savior. So I'm a little mentally screwed up over this. I see much merit in the lessons of the bible, and the sermons I hear ring true with my heart. But I do not believe in God or Christ. I think Christ probably existed, he was probably an influential revolutionary. He was probably crucified, but he, in my opinion, was no more than a man. So for me, religion is a thing to be respected, even followed, and certainly felt, but not to be taken literally. The Bible for me is a series of metaphors, and sermons are moral lessons, which have been taught to us through religion's analogy.
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Post by xShadowLordx on May 6, 2010 22:15:36 GMT -5
Well, Christianity isn't the only religion there is. The Bible isn't the only book we have. What about the other monotheistic religions? Islam and Judaism?
I am a Muslim, and although the three Abrahamic religions have some differing views, I think they prove each other, to some extent. It's no coincidence that they all have almost identical beliefs. It's no coincidence that Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, and other prophets like Noah, Solomon, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Lot, Zacharias, Abraham, Adam, etc. all believed in and preached the idea of one God. There were thousands and thousands of prophets over thousands and thousands of years, with the same fundamental idea. God HAS to be real.
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Post by GGoodie on May 6, 2010 22:33:31 GMT -5
You're right TSL, the bible, which has it's whole old testament based off of the Jewish Bible (cant remember name) is not coincidentally similar. If you read the bible, you might notice that everyone in the old testament is Jewish, because obviously, everyone before Christ who believes in Jehovah would be Jewish. Also, Muslims believe that Jesus did exist, but he wasn't the messiah. Am I correct? It is not a coincidence that Islam is not in the bible, because the bible came first. Just as Judaism came before Christianity. To Christians, Abraham is important, just as Jesus to Muslims, but just not as important as their respective messiahs.
And no, just because some people who aren't proven to have existed say something exists, doesn't make it real.
Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Dumbledore all say Voldemort is real, but is he?
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Post by microfarad on May 6, 2010 23:16:17 GMT -5
This thread depresses me. I don't know why. Maybe I don't like thinking about this...
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Post by dhoomlord on May 6, 2010 23:30:22 GMT -5
No.
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Post by Phantom Zero on May 9, 2010 15:26:11 GMT -5
*sighs* Well this is the first time i have posted in this and i can tell you its not going to be the last. Religion is well.... its there so people can believe that they are doing something good for themselves and others without doing anything at all... with that there comes a side affect the believing in something that may or may not be there, God. Like MF i am an atheist.... I think we most likely evolved, we are watching many species evolving before our eyes! Chimps are now useing tools! they are making spears, they are evolving like we did millions of years ago! There is prof that we did evolve bones that existed millions of years ago that are much like human bones today. Why would the so called "God" pick us, just us, to be the only life in the universe or galaxy? As the famous Carl Sagan said in his pale blue dot speech " We are a speck in an endless and ever expanding universe" (may not be to exact word) but we are an insignificant little blue dot in the gravitational pull of an average red star in the outer arm of a galaxy in the infinite universe. Tell me, why would "God" pick this little insignificant planet out of trillions and trillions of planets to put the only life in the galaxy or universe that we know of? Please tell me why..... if you can....
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Post by Vertigo on May 9, 2010 16:42:51 GMT -5
Phantom, your questions don't apply to my religion.
I believe in evolution, and life outside our planet.
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Post by Qwerty on May 10, 2010 18:50:36 GMT -5
Ggoodie, yes, HE IS REAL!
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Post by regulus on May 23, 2010 2:23:34 GMT -5
Oh boy. I don't like getting into these religious debates usually, it often creates enemies and lots of frustration. But I feel I'll throw something in regardless.
Before we go further, I'll point out that I'm a devout Christian.
So, as I was saying, I just wanted to give you guys something to think about. Imagine, its the Saturday after your finals, you just wake up and your friends want you to go hang otut with them, whether it be at the mall, the park....But your dad makes it really clear to you that if you want to have a life at all today, the yard has to be mowed. So, you go find the lawn mower and you drag out into the backyard. You're about to start it up when you notice somethingdark sticking up from the grass. You walk over and are filled with anger. On the ground, spelled in rocks, are the words 'HAVE FUN MOWING, SUCKER'.
Now, what is your first thought? We can all assume that we realize right away that these words are here from your mischeivous little sister who's always messing with you and who you're parents never make work, right? When you look at the words on the ground, you think, 'When did she do this?!' And 'I'll get her back!!'. ....or....do you think, 'My, my! Isn't it an amazing coincedence that, in the middle of the night, the wind and earth happened to work together in such a way that they jumbled these rocks and twigs into a message that's conveniently written in my language?!' Of course not. You see that something as complicated as that obviously has a designer.
My point is, does design EVER come from chaos in our life? Do you ever see anything that is designed spefically to complete certain functions that happened by complete chance for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Does it EVER HAPPEN? No, it doesn't, and we all know it doesn't! You can try the counterexample by saying animals, for example, are designed, but you don't think God designed them. But that's invalid because that just brings us back to the original argument. We can't know for sure whether a God created everything as it is. But for things like, I.E., paintings on the wall, we don't assume and act shocked that wind happened to blow mud and dye together into the perfect likeness of a person on a piece of paper that also was somehow shaped by the forces of nature out of a tree - by chance - and for no reason AT ALL - Do we? If you have taken science classes at all, you should know that the design for human life is infinitely more complicated than a painting, and yet atheists can still safely say a painting can't happen by chance, but a human being can.
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Post by Qwerty on May 23, 2010 2:28:51 GMT -5
We never say that animals were designed...
Anyway, just cause we don't see things on a short scale doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the long term. See all those buildings? Guess what? We made them, not some deity.
Atheists don't say some wind stirs some stuff together to make a human. It is a very long and complex process. I mean, we don't need a God to have, say, the formation of stars, do we? That's just elements flying together and making something. Same with Earth.
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Post by Pir8ozzy on May 23, 2010 13:10:27 GMT -5
Oh boy. I don't like getting into these religious debates usually, it often creates enemies and lots of frustration. But I feel I'll throw something in regardless. Before we go further, I'll point out that I'm a devout Christian. So, as I was saying, I just wanted to give you guys something to think about. Imagine, its the Saturday after your finals, you just wake up and your friends want you to go hang otut with them, whether it be at the mall, the park....But your dad makes it really clear to you that if you want to have a life at all today, the yard has to be mowed. So, you go find the lawn mower and you drag out into the backyard. You're about to start it up when you notice somethingdark sticking up from the grass. You walk over and are filled with anger. On the ground, spelled in rocks, are the words 'HAVE FUN MOWING, SUCKER'. Now, what is your first thought? We can all assume that we realize right away that these words are here from your mischeivous little sister who's always messing with you and who you're parents never make work, right? When you look at the words on the ground, you think, 'When did she do this?!' And 'I'll get her back!!'. ....or....do you think, 'My, my! Isn't it an amazing coincedence that, in the middle of the night, the wind and earth happened to work together in such a way that they jumbled these rocks and twigs into a message that's conveniently written in my language?!' Of course not. You see that something as complicated as that obviously has a designer. My point is, does design EVER come from chaos in our life? Do you ever see anything that is designed spefically to complete certain functions that happened by complete chance for absolutely no reason whatsoever? Does it EVER HAPPEN? No, it doesn't, and we all know it doesn't! You can try the counterexample by saying animals, for example, are designed, but you don't think God designed them. But that's invalid because that just brings us back to the original argument. We can't know for sure whether a God created everything as it is. But for things like, I.E., paintings on the wall, we don't assume and act shocked that wind happened to blow mud and dye together into the perfect likeness of a person on a piece of paper that also was somehow shaped by the forces of nature out of a tree - by chance - and for no reason AT ALL - Do we? If you have taken science classes at all, you should know that the design for human life is infinitely more complicated than a painting, and yet atheists can still safely say a painting can't happen by chance, but a human being can. I am surprised that you did not realise the obvious flaw in that argument. The single concept which refutes your logic is the sheer numbers involved in the so called "random processes" such as evolution and the creation of Earth. Any unlikely event, no matter how unlikely, is still possible given enough repetitions of the circumstances. There are more than 10^20 planets out there. So even if the chance of a planet sustaining life is one-in-a-hundred-trillion, there will still be millions of planets containing life, simply because the sheer number of planets dwarfs the probability. Same with evolution. It is claimed that the first organisms spawned from mixtures of amino acids and other compounds. The chances of the correct enzymes and proteins coming in to contact are tiny. However when you consider that the entire planet was covered by these compounds, mixing together for millions of years, it actually becomes likely that the correct combination will be found.
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